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Bonnie Sparks talks about how structure enhances her creativity (Bright Way Podcasts)

bright way podcasts Apr 15, 2021

Multidisciplinary creative and scientist Bonnie Sparks shares how structure enhances her creativity rather than hems it in. By having a system, she gains momentum and also resilience​ when common creative boogeymen like perfectionism show up. Bonnie also appreciates the inspiration​ and example of experts from many disciplines, and incorporates their wisdom​ with her own powerful vision to create over and over.

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All right. Welcome Bonnie too. Bright Way chats. And this is where we explore what creativity actually looks like in real life. And our whole mission is to show that creativity is inherent to every single person. And while it's inherent inside everybody, you know, oftentimes we will lose our, lose our way here and there. And we like to explore how to get back on the path.

So thank you for being here. I'm so happy to join you. This is a wonderful, wonderful podcast. I'm excited. Yeah. We really want to show that, you know, creativity is possible. It's very, very possible. It's inherent. And where are you? Oh, I am in Eastern Massachusetts. They're on about 45 minutes, South of Boston.

Lovely, lovely. And can you tell us a little bit about your creative journey? I know it started from when you were a child. I have always been involved in music through my own curiosity. We had a little, I don't even know what they're called. It looks like a piano, but it's like an organ it's very small. And we have that in the house and I always played with it and I picked up violin in fourth grade.

And then in the, at 11, when I was like leaving eighth grade, my music teacher introduced me to Phantom of the opera and Carmen and all of these wonderful musicals. And I fell in love and I say them because they had such wonderful engaging lyrics. And my dad and his girlfriend at the time were like, she can sing when we need to get her lessons like this needs to happen because reasons.

And so I was classically trained by a wonderful, wonderful, fierce, little fiery red haired woman who gave me all of the excellent tools you need to not wreck yourself. And then, you know, I went to college for music cause I wanted to be a voice teacher. That was my, my driving goal. Cause I really appreciated what she did for me.

And I wanted to be able to do that for other people. And as soon as I got into music school for undergrad, I was immediately hit by what felt like a 500,000 pound hammer. I was not ready for any of the expectations that the professors put on me. I, I was a good vocalist. I was an excellent vocalist and I had all the leads and all of the plays and all of the musicals.

And I did all of these things. And then he said, I need you to write a composition for a 12 piece orchestra. Oh, I don't know how to do that. I don't even know how to begin doing that. And that was the first start of my semester for music theory, one Oh one and right, your face says it all like Y and this man also happened to be the choir,

the guy who ran the choir. And so I immediately felt like I didn't belong. Like I don't belong here. And because he was not just the music theory teacher, he was also the choir teacher. You kind of, you kind of shrink away from, from that. And so I struggle a lot, even now, as you know, I don't even want to think about how many years later I'm 20 years later and you can still see the effects of that,

where it just felt like, well, this is, this is an unknown that I am not able to. I shouldn't even bother trying to pursue I'm out of my league. And to finally have to circle back around to the place where it doesn't matter, you know? And that's, it's a completely full circle back to that point where I had that little,

you know, that little keyboard, you know, that made a little pinky noises and I play in, I played and I played and I loved it. I loved, and I loved it and my parents loved it. And my parents loved it enough to encourage me to do it. And I said, you know, self we've made it back around.

None of those things matter. And it's, it's hard to sit and think, Oh, I could have spent, you know, it would've been great if I come to this a little sooner, but it doesn't, it doesn't matter because I'm here now. And from here, I've been so unreasonably blessed to be surrounded by such incredible, incredible people and guides and mentors and teachers that always know how to give me what I need in order to make the next step.

And I, I recognize that. And I'm so supported at home. You know, my husband is just, I'm the worst with technology. So let me tell you what the worst, like, if it's not analog, I don't know how to deal with it. So he sets up all of my stuff. He never complains. He does it on his own because he supports me.

And so those, those supports and those guidance counselors really, really kind of give you momentum because when these are people that you respect and you love and you care about you don't want to let them down. And so there you have a new, it's a whole new aspect of, Oh no, wait, no, wait, no, wait. As long as you're doing the thing,

they're all happy because you're happy. And it's just this whole happiness sharing bang. And it's wonderful. And that to me is what being part of music and art is. You know, it shouldn't be all of that just all the time. Yeah. I love how you knew really what that feeling was from the get go from your earliest days. You knew that feeling of connection and that music was making you feel so alive and so happy.

And maybe those weren't the words that you'd necessarily used as a child, but you know, you really were yourself at that time. And not only did you feel that, but everybody around you felt that as well. And as time goes on, sometimes we start losing track of that feeling and external things come in and start effecting us such as you know,

we're given this assignment that throws us and we start to feel like big things like, Oh, I don't belong here. I'm not cut out for this. Like really it suddenly becomes internalized these external things come in and kind of throw us off of our center. And then as we find our ways back and you know, my story, it was exactly the same in many,

many ways. And as we circle back, it's like, Oh my goodness, I knew this already. But the good thing is for having gone through that journey, we have a lot of wisdom and a lot of experience to share. And so I'm so pleased about how your story really empowers people to know that no matter what happens, you can get back on the path,

even when you've had very, very terrifying experiences. So when you went into college and began getting those experiences around music, would you say it affected you in terms of performance anxiety? So I, I am one of the rare sparkly Fe of the world who loves to perform. You could literally, you could call. If I lived nearby, you could call me and say,

Hey, I need you to go sing five songs on stage in front of 2000 people. And I'd say, I think I got five minutes to do my hair. Like, I'm ready, I'm done. I love it. I'm really, really great in front of a crowd, no issues whatsoever for me, my, my deep rooted fear that the thing with Claus is the fear of expressing myself in a deep way.

That's meaningful to me and having it come across wrong. And so I get caught, I get caught in the literal creativity part of it, that's where my gears twist, Right? So being misunderstood misinterpreted Or not doing justice to what it is that I'm trying to do. And that's literally what I'm working on now with the, I have such a great teacher.

She pushes me exactly the way I need. And she has given me the tools. I need to just write a song. I have like a checklist with steps in an order in which to do things. And now that I have that I can take all that baggage. None of that matters because we're not doing that right now, right now, we're learning,

you know, the structure, the, the, the things that will allow the creativity to feel natural. Cause that was basically what I think it was, was I didn't have the tools in my toolbox that I really needed to do what I need to do. And this whole journey here has been what allowed me to realize that, you know, I,

I kept assigning myself to, you know, the Harp or to an instrument where this is, you know, this is your, this is your instruments, what you do. But once I started realizing that, that wasn't the part that mattered, it allowed all of that to just melt away. You know, you don't have to concern with what your chosen instrument is or what other people think of it or any of that just,

no, no, no. I'm just going to make a thing with these. Here's my instructions. Right. And practice and do. And the more you do, the more natural it becomes, and then you're just pouring it out and you're not even realizing it's happening. And it's just been a really, it's been a wild ride, wild, You know,

there's a lot of impression. I think that, that creativity just sort of randomly shows up. Like we get Inspiration and the thing happens, you know, there's a lot of mystique around it and you're basically struck by the muse and you can suddenly do something. And this is something, as you know, that I actually don't really believe in. I believe Inspiration is absolutely a thing magic in many ways.

I also believe in skill. And so when you're talking about the structure and system, could you talk a little bit more about that in terms of how that structure really can actually let the magic come out more? It actually does not kill the magic in any way. Yeah. I feel like theory can be very off putting for a lot of people because there's so much of it.

And where do you start? But as personally, you know, I'm a biologist and a chemist. So for me, it's just the science of music. And so you can look at it as a language that you can hear these things, you can do these experiments, they are reproducible every time. That's what music theory is. And so if you can get past feeling like overwhelmed by all of these words,

then you can get a better move on to the part that actually matters, which is why, you know, so we've, we've decided to name these things, to write these things and make these things important. But, but why, you know, and that's, that's a little more esoteric and I think it's oddly enough, easier to kind of get a grip on from the artistic side of it.

You know? And so when you, when you can kind of find the things you need and the order that's the thing is you have to find them in the order in which you need them. You know, there's all of this stuff, but the foundation, the nuts and bolts, you need to just really hone in and just get smaller and smaller until you can find where it starts.

And for me, that was being assigned to write a song. My teacher was like, Oh right. You sent me lyrics, go do something with them. You know? So now I, yeah. I was like, Whoa, Oh shoot. Okay. Now I have an assignment very well. And so I did, I started and I struggled with the struggle that I struggled and it was hard and I didn't know what I was doing.

And then I realized, I didn't know what I was doing. That's good. Now I have, now I have the ability to ask the right questions because otherwise you're just flailing. You're just flailing around in the expanse of nothingness going, well, I don't, maybe I'll hit something I need eventually, but you know, once you understand why it's like,

you go, well, it's failing, but now I can ask why. So here's the problems I'm having? What do, how fix? Yeah. And I realized very much, probably like many, many, many people. I was putting the cart in front of the horse, as they say, because you want to get moving because you're excited because you you're in a hurry to get to where you think you're supposed to be.

Right. I should already be there by now. I'm 39. What's going on? Why am I not doing this yet? But you've got to start in the same place that everyone else starts, even if you're 39 when you're starting it. And so that, that really kind of allowed me to get myself settled and to stop, to stop racing for it.

Like my mother has a thing that she says, she said it all through my childhood and it was always after a crash or a claim or a fall or whatever. And she'd say the hurrier I go the farther behind I get. And the older I get, the more I say it, slow down, you know, just think about what you're doing when you're doing it and not about what you're supposed to be doing next.

And then the creativity just literally falls out because you're in your moment. You're here now right now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, creativity is so much a process. It is processes really all it is. And yes, these products emerge along the way, but they only emerged because of the process. So if we're not there in the process or rushing the process,

number one, we're not having good time. So probably we'll end up with burnout or we won't really want to do the thing. You know, when people find themselves resistant to Practice, it's oftentimes that Practice is not associated with having fun. Otherwise they do it, you know, but even in the end regarding the product, I really feel the product ends up getting affected.

Of course, if we're not really enjoying the process. And so really that you can't go wrong looking at the process. And when you talk about the systems and structures, so much process is actually in that. And I also love the way that for you, you're using the process in a really nonjudgmental way in terms of, Oh, that's good or bad,

you're saying, is it working or is it not working? And from there you have all kinds of volition and different opportunities. And it's much more of an exploration than just some kind of cut and dried judgment. Yeah. I've I guess, instead of being given a blank page, I now have a coloring page, so you know, the lines on it,

I just gotta fill them in. So, you know, I'm also struck by your discussion about mentors, your mentors have been really important for me as well. How do you go about finding mentors? Fortune has smiled upon me. So I have been, I have forcibly chosen excellent human beings to exist within my life and my friendship circle. And so I have always,

always, always known wonderful, wonderful human beings. And from there it becomes very easy to reach out and find more of them. Yeah. I hate to say I have a high standard for the people I'm friends with, but I, I do, but it's good. Like I know all kinds of people from all over the world and they're all wonderful humans.

Like the thing that matters is there. And like I said, they know more wonderful humans who are interesting and dedicated to whatever their craft is. And, you know, I know black who knows blacksmiths. I know two of them such I know specialists in things. I always say, if I can't answer your question, I know someone who can, no matter what it is,

I know an expert in it, and that's a wonderful, wonderful thing to be able to, to utilize, you know, and it's not, I don't think anyone should ever hesitate to use the friends in their group to find more friends like, you know, I, I appreciate you. I trust you as a human, who do you know that would,

you know, be able to help with this or that? You know, I found some incredible, incredible friends just literally through, Hey, this seems like a person you would like. Yeah. You know, that, that old saying that, you know, we tend to be the sum of the six people around us. I don't entirely believe that,

but I definitely believe the six closest people around us affect us greatly. And then of course, many of us know many more than that. You know, our circles are wide at this point and being picky about the people you spend your time and energy with is I believe it's really important because I mean, you show it because it really affects our entire journey,

our whole journey in life, really. And I feel the things that you spend your time doing are the most important, important things, because it's a horrible thing to say, because it sounds so terrible, but I always say we're just skin sacks full of time. Right. That's basically what we are. Right. And you can, you can let it leak out or you can squeeze it out.

There's all kinds of ways you can do with it. But that time is really all you've got. That's what you're made out of is, is tired. It is. It's very, very precious to me. And so I, I kind of Way things by value of my time, you know, finding other people who find things important, I think are the best people to be close to.

They have such insight and such wisdom because they pay attention, you know, find the askers of why, but then they go find it like what, you know, why does that bird do that thing I'm going to watch? And I'm going to find out another great thing that we did from since when we were tiny, you know, there's the three year old who goes,

why, why, why? I mean, those are actually good questions to be asking. So you're frozen just a little bit. I should, I'm going to turn off my fan here. You probably be good. Yep. You're back. Yay. Yay. So we talked about the idea of having a structure and a system. We talked about the idea of your artistic community,

your creative community. We talked about the idea of mentors, which I feel is so important, so, so important. Right? And then another thing you know, that I really admire about what you do is your incredible cross training. You're like a master gardener amongst other things. You know, I know you as a wonderful harpist and now doing Harp composing,

you have a lot of passions, a lot of creative endeavors. Could you share some of them with us? Absolutely. I feel like my list is rather unreasonably long. I, I see, I like shiny things. I put it on my business card. I'll be shiny thing enthusiastic. And so if I see something that I think is shiny, I want to know more about it.

And so I, I accumulate all of these incredible, incredible rewarding hobbies. So I've, I've also done some interesting things. Like I was in the military, I was a hydraulic mechanic and a steam engine mechanic. I've worked on 50,000 horsepower engines, you know, so things that are like, right. Like, Oh, okay, sure. Who,

who hasn't like you too. And you know, I've always been in art and music and I think it sounds, it doesn't sound like directly related, but being a science major has absolutely impacted my life in one of the best ways that I never expected. And it was just through, well, once again. Excellent, excellent professors. I had wonderful man,

wonderful fellow students who helped me study and kept me in line. It was the whole thing was just beautifully put together and orchestrated, but the whole process of learning to be a scientist kind of puts your head in an interesting place where you're better able to, to build things from the ground up. We go, okay, I can deconstruct this and put it back together.

And now I understand why and you start to do that with a lot of stuff. And so now everything's really interesting. You're like, Oh, knitting, I understand meeting because I can see it. I can look at it and I can take it apart and put it together. And it all makes sense. And so I picked up meaning I can knit,

I can crochet. I crochet. So I crochet as well. I, if you're going to do those things, now you're in the fiber arts. So I spend my own yarn and I make all my own battings I let's see what are my other hobbies, obviously, plants, I work dangerous. I work at a, a nursery. And so I don't think I've earned a single red cent from that place because they get all of my money.

And I know you've been putting together a book of plants, very beautifully designed. I mean, it goes even beyond calligraphy. I mean, it's definitely, it's just a gorgeous work, a longterm work. I, I did. I hired a, a bookmaker from Spain. It's this one woman. She makes books. That's what she does. And so I commissioned her for a special book.

And my intention is to put in all of the plants that I have in my home, in my garden, and to give it all of their properties from the scientific to the medicinal, to the mystical and just all in one place, but nothing extraneous, you know? So it'll be my book. It'll be very, very personal, but I can't imagine that people wouldn't want to look through it anyway.

It's a big, big tone. Right. And that was so I started doing the calligraphy and that was after my second hand surgery. So it was literally done with the hope of giving myself some dexterity control, which it did. And moving to that idea. After the hand surgeries, I had a lot of struggles cause it was my tendons. You know,

I don't, no one needs to get into details, but my tendons not so not so good. And I, my arm atrophied my hand, atrophied my tendons break. And so I was like, what can I do to help strengthen and also keep limber so that I can avoid this from happening. And I started to do what is known as chigong.

And I do there's I believe 12 or 16 different forms. And I do the<inaudible>, which is for attendant health. And that has absolutely it's a game changer. It is, it has made me so much better in so many more ways than just physically, you know, because as you're doing these things, it goes back to that scientific mind where you're like,

Oh, well, you know, I have these injuries and these things that I have to work through and you're nowhere, but with yourself in that moment slowly moving through, you know, these motions, and as you sit with yourself, you're able to work through things, things that are not even related, you know? So I have, I have an OCD where I have to count,

I am a counter. So if I'm doing a thing I'm counting and it's very frustrating, I hate, but I do it. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't bother anyone else that's in my head, but I'm like, Oh God, I don't care how many times I've cut this onion. And so, because I did it so often with that,

she gone, I turned it around now when I'm cutting or doing anything and I'm counting, I use it to practice my posture. And so I've redirected, I've taken this negative and redirected it into a positive, right. And that was for the cheat gong that kind of allowed me to give myself that skill unexpected. It had never been anticipated. It wasn't what I was looking to get from it.

But it has been, it's been a game changer to be able to redirect myself, you know, it's like tricking a kid with candy, don't cry, don't cry. And I'm like, Oh yeah, we're good. Now I'm really struck by your amazing use of cross training. And so in using this chigong as a way to basically also have a sense of self inquiry and to get even clearer on what you're about can only impact all your expression in a very,

very powerful way. You know? So although you had an injury and for some people, you know, that might be like, Oh, you know, stop everything. You know, this is terrifying and relying simply on surgery. You also went the extra mile and took up to gong and began getting all these benefits, including good posture. I have a really brief story about a Harp student coming in for her first lesson.

And she, she was an adult in her early fifties probably. And I usually like to start people with improv when they are on the Harp, because it's just so ridiculously fruitful right. From the get go. And so I showed her a little bit about the hand position and I said, well, you just make some gestures, you know, and see how it goes.

And she just began playing with incredible form that you haven't played the Harp before. And she said, no, I've never put it on a sec. This is so strange. I was like, are you a dancer? And she said, no. I was like, do you do yoga? She was like, no, not really. I'm sick.

Well, you must do some kind of physical thing. Well, I've done Tai Chi for 20 years. And I was like, there it is. You've had five years of Harp lessons already. You're already on your five in my book. You know, we both come from a classical background and there's sometimes an attitude like every spare minute should be on our one instrument that were chosen from day one and every minute should be geared towards becoming ever more virtuosic on that one thing.

But throughout the years, I've found that actually you can get incredible breakthroughs and quantum leaps through cross training instead. So when I think about, you know, what you learned with posture with chigong, I mean, sometimes that can only be learned to that depth and that fast speed that you learned it with through to gong, not necessarily through traditional lessons. So what do you think of that?

I absolutely agree. And in this particular instance that she gong the whole purpose of stretching your tendons. You know, it has happened because of my injury. So I literally made huge strides in my life because of this, where, you know, if you are goal is to stretch in LinkedIn, right? Your tendons are attached to your muscles, which are then attached to the bones.

But if you are stretching, you cannot, you cannot possibly force it. If you're doing anything that involves force, you're tightening your muscles, which inherently is the opposite of stretching. And so I, my, my query to myself was, well, if this is true, then the best way to go about stretching is to be a perfect balance. Literally physically find your balance point.

And so it forced me to learn and it starts slow. You're not good at it at first when you realize, Oh, I can't balance. And you start working with me and those toes do a job, and it's amazing. And you know, you, you start to really discover how your body actually works. When you just try to find balance in posture,

you know, you get all those little boxes of your spine stacked up nice and straight. And you're like, Oh, I don't have to do anything now. Now I'm just wonderfully floating in space. It's true. I would have never come to that without the Xi gong. Yeah. Yeah. So I think cross training clearly should be here to stay.

And I don't like the word should a lot, but in this case, I really feel like I missed out by sort of obsessive obsessive, really just focusing on my two instruments, piano, and then Harp and cutting things out. Sometimes. You know, I remember I had a photographer, well, a friend who was actually a composer and he also loved taking photos.

And I would just give him, you know, the third degree, I'd be like, why are you taking photos? You should be composing. That's what you are. You're a composer. Anytime spent away from the composing desk is time that you're not composing. And he was like my whole world of my attitude. And now I'm mind boggled at my attitude.

But I think, you know, cross training is an incredible way to get more insight on the thing you're doing. And it also keeps you passionate alive. You know, you feeds it, it gives it all kinds of new inspiration and juice. Sometimes you need to look at things from the outside in order to really get good insight. And in order to do that,

you literally have to walk away. You have to put it down and walk away and go for a run, you know, go hit your punching bag. Do whatever it is that you do. You know, maybe you dance, maybe you do Tai Chi. There's so many things that you can allow to be what I call and this will apply to all,

I call it meditation in motion. It doesn't matter what your chosen thing is. Me dance. Maybe it's, you know, the martial arts, maybe you're a runner. Maybe you're a workout junkie, whatever that happens to be. But you're, once you get your body doing a thing that it is comfortable doing and knows how to do it, let your brain go.

All of a sudden it's literally free. And that's when you can. It's why we always have those shower moments. Right. You know, you're all relaxed. Your brain is chill and you go, Oh, that's a great idea. Oh yeah. I love how you're describing this. Basically coming back to your center, physically, when you're in balance,

everything starts coming out. And then also, you know, on the emotional, spiritual, intellectual level, when we come back to ourselves, everything becomes so much easier and more enjoyable, more productive, more comes out of it as a side effect. You know, we're not obsessed about the products, but guess what? They come out anyway, because we're really there.

And it gives me, it gives me my, my, my tiny little satisfaction of feeling like a little bit like a rebel. Cause you're like, take that hydraulic press. You will not squish me. Yes, you do. You feel like this tiny, mighty little, you know, dense Bright thing of, you know, untouchable illness. You're like,

no, no, it's, it's cool. And it's, it's just really year to challenge it, right? Yeah. Strengthen true confidence. Yeah. I mean, confidence, as in faith, in oneself, you know, confidence, faith in oneself, you really that's a big deal. Faith in oneself. It really, really is. It really,

really is be the trust yourself. And then it was actually funny. I finally like literally this year was all of this happening in my emotional journey. And then in your most recent email, your one that you turned into a newsletter, you, you suggested, I don't remember the wording were put down, you know, the Practice plan and the, you know,

the Purpose now's the time to manifest and it's like, yeah, yes, you can't, you also can't get caught in that, that part of the process, because then you will never create, you know, and sometimes having someone else go, Hey, again, Community aspect is, I mean, for me, I think so much about, you know,

system structure and then Community, you know, those two things together really help us with our, with our manifestation. So the, the last thing I'd like to really come to and something you had just shared with me super struck me the, the idea that sometimes we may feel that we're betraying our chosen discipline, you know, say it's Harp if we go and do something else.

So now this really taps into the cross training again, but there is sometimes it's quite, almost desperate feeling like, Oh, you know, I'm betraying my thing. If I don't just focus on that particular thing. And, and you said earlier, before we started recording that, it's almost like we confuse ourselves with that thing. Like we sometimes feel like we're almost like morphed ourselves into that thing.

Yeah. You become, you become entwined with it. Yes. And so you're, when you feel like you are entwined with this thing where you are, when, you know, when people think of you, they think of this. And so if you're not good at this, well then who am I? And so you have this intertwining of thing in person,

and it's very easy to not be able to find your own worth when you don't see or feel that you're good enough. Right. And so you're like, well, how can I ever possibly be good enough? You know, I'm already behind the curve. You know, people have been doing this much longer than me and have much better skills and all of these things.

And all of a sudden I had this realization, this moment where it's like the Harp, you know, the instrument, the thing, the thing is not me. It is not, it is not my purpose. It is a beautiful, wonderful, vital tool that supports my purpose. You know, that I can utilize in the ways that it is strong to emphasize the ways that I am strong,

but we are not the same thing. Right. Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Cause I feel like when we get intertwined with our tool, essentially too closely, our identity is wrapped up with it in such a way that we start to lose ourselves. We are completely beholden to whatever's happening that day. You know, was it a good Practice day or I'm a good person was at a bad Practice day.

I'm a rubbish person. And I mean, that is just, yeah. And there's such mystique about whatever our chosen art form is that it, we can say, Oh, I am a musician. I am a writer. You know, I am a dancer, but we aren't really, we just happen to be doing those things. We are that thing that you were as a little girl first approaching the little keyboard right there.

That was everything. I, I, I like to watch nature. It brings me a lot of insight and having surrounded by plants and flowers does a really good job of that. And I watched the beast, right. I liked to watch the bees on the flowers. And I realized the bees aren't like getting up in the morning and going to work,

being like, Oh man, I got to go to another flower. I gotta clock in there. Like they, they're literally all over those flowers. They're like, this is the best pollen I've ever had in my life. They get in there, they're rolling around. There's a bunch of them. They're loving it. They're loving it. They're having so much fun.

And I've decided that that is, I think that's what bees are about. And they're really productive. You know, they got a lot done. They make really good, honey, they're adorable and fuzzy. They communicate through dance. You know, I have a queen, they're run by women. I'm here for this baby. Love what you do. Well,

I love that. I love that metaphor. I feel like that's the perfect note to wrap up on. Thank you so much, Bonnie, so many insights about what, what creativity looks like and what supports our creativity and some of the myths that around it and how we can let go and always see coming back to center and asking the question. Why thank you so much.

Thank you so much for having me. It was wonderful. Yay. Talk soon. Bye.


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